Perspectives on Feminist Foreign Policy: A Conversation with Kristina Lunz

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Full series: Feminist Foreign Policy: Shaping Global Discourses

Transcript

Dr. Tishya Khillare: 

Hello there! you're listening to a podcast on feminist foreign policy produced for the Heinrich Böll Stiftung regional office in New Delhi. My name is Tishya Khillare, and I'm a researcher based in New Delhi working on gender security and feminist international relations. In this podcast, I speak with Ms. Kristina Lunz, who is the co-founder and co-executive director of the Center for Feminist Foreign Policy in Berlin, Germany. Ms.Lunz is an award-winning human rights activist and best-selling author of the book The Future of Foreign Policy, is Feminist. She has previously been on the Forbes 30 under 30 list. The Center for Feminist Foreign Policy, which Ms.Lunz co-founded, advocates of feminist foreign policy that challenges the conventional standards of international politics, and has been involved in the preparatory discussions for the recently launched guidelines of feminist foreign policy by the current German government. In this podcast, we discuss Ms.Lunz's perspectives on feminist foreign policy, and together we dive into the details of various feminist foreign policy frameworks being adopted by countries around the world.

Hi, Kristina, It's such a pleasure to have you join me on this podcast. I have been following your work and the work of the Center for Feminist Foreign Policy for some time now. So it's truly a privilege to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much for taking up the time to be in conversation with me today. I want to begin by first exploring your views on how you understand and explain feminist foreign policy in the work that you do, and what do you think makes a foreign policy feminist?

Ms. Kristina Lunz:

So, a truly feminist foreign policy, has to tackle unequal power distribution, that is really what it's about ultimately. So feminist foreign policy is about using all available diplomatic tools to make foreign and security policy human rights based, it has to focus on human rights, human security instead of military security, economic interests, for example. And feminist foreign policy understands foreign policy as a tool to contribute to justice globally and to an end of oppression. So, we know from research that the most significant factor towards whether a country is peaceful within its own borders or towards other countries is the level of gender equality. So, unless we fight patriarchal structures, and patriarchal structures kind of have the origin in oppressing women, globally, there is no country where women are not significantly oppressed and to different degrees depending on regions, for example, but patriarchal structures do not stop.. kind of.. the oppression of women. So, in order to end oppression towards women and other marginalized groups, and in order to get kind of these oppressive structures that which violent structures out of society, and feminist foreign policy can be a tool and should be. So, in short, feminist foreign policy needs to tackle these inequal power relations. It can do so by liberating women, by liberating all oppressed people and it's the only way to have peace and security. There cannot be peace without feminism, actually.

Dr. Tishya Khillare: 

Thank you. That's a very helpful answer to get this conversation started. I think, to me, what differentiates a feminist foreign policy from let's say, a non-feminist foreign policy for the sake of this conversation, is the intention of a government to address the invisibility of not just gender, but also other sources of marginalization in different aspects of their foreign policy. When I say different aspects of foreign policy, I mean, the process of making a feminist foreign policy, who are the people who are making a feminist foreign policy, what are the processes followed to make that feminist foreign policy? What is the gender analysis brought into the conversation around it? What should that country's feminist foreign policy look like? The policy itself- so, these are frameworks that we're all reading that governments release and inaugurate and the impact of that feminist foreign policy itself. As a feminist International Relations scholar based in a global south country, India, specifically, when I read feminist foreign policy frameworks, I look for an intersectional approach. What that means is that a particular country in its feminist foreign policy recognizes and seeks to counter multiple sources of marginalization. There is a need and an intention captured in their feminist foreign policy to go beyond women's rights and girl’s rights. These are very important, but as we know, as feminist scholars, there are multiple sources of marginalization that converge and act on different populations of people. So, for me, a feminist foreign policy, showcasing an intersectional approach is quite important. I think this aspect is also especially important when we're talking about relations between global north and south countries. And I want to bring this in, because you know, you're based in Germany and I’m based in India. So, it's important that we bring this aspect into this conversation right now. Quite often, Global north countries tend to focus exclusively on women's rights and girl’s rights in certain aspects of their foreign policy action. We see this in the case of Canada, for instance, through its feminist international assistance policy, we seen this in the case of the now erstwhile Swedish feminist foreign policy, the lens was exclusively focused on women and girls. But I think it's important that countries and governments who are willing to adopt feminist foreign policy put in that extra intellectual muscle to ensure that feminist foreign policies go beyond women and girls (and their rights) and identify, and transform.. bit by bit- power asymmetries of different kinds in the conduct of their international relations. And one of the most important aspects of power asymmetry when we're talking about global north and south relations is revisiting these engagements and interactions with a decolonial lens. What I want to link this to is the large scope of what feminists’ foreign policy can mean. And we're already seeing different countries coming up with different versions of their feminist foreign policy frameworks. And no two are really the same. Earlier this year, we've seen the official German feminist foreign policy being released, and you've been involved in many conversations around it. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you think are German priorities for its feminist foreign policy and how Germany defines the scope of feminism within its feminist foreign policy?

Ms. Kristina Lunz:

Let me quickly mention or like add to what you just said on intersectionality and decolonization is of course, it needs to be at the core of feminist foreign policy. When we started CFFP- Center for Feminist foreign policy, five years ago in Berlin, and right from the beginning, intersectionality and decolonizing foreign policy, in fact that our launch event back then, kind of the title was ‘Diplomacy, Disarmament and Decolonization’ because it has to be at the core that cannot be a feminist foreign policy that is militarized, and that cannot be a feminist foreign policy that is not decolonial and that cannot be feminist one policy that is not intersectional, and we all are very lucky to be standing on the shoulders of like incredible, like black feminists, such as Kimberlé Crenshaw, who coined the term of intersectionality, kind of the coming together of different forms of discrimination or/and oppression, like at an intersection, so to say, this is where the word is coming from. Going back to the question you just said, kind of this really differentiates also several or some of the official feminist one, state level feminist foreign policies from others, because of the understanding of the importance of intersectionality. Not all states have it at the core of the feminist foreign policy, some states that is, for example, France, or who else do we have Spain I think, as well, they have a strong focus on women and girls. And it is important to like strive for gender equality, and a world that would be free from oppression of women would be a much safer world, but not only because of that, but like every woman and every girl deserves to enjoy the human rights as well, because the status quo is that women globally only enjoy three quarters of the human rights that are of the rights of that men enjoy. So, women deserve the same rights no matter what but if the second we don't realize how forms of oppression are interlinked, and we're failing with our feminist foreign policies.

I'm actually glad and going back to your question with regards to Germany that when Germany announced its feminist foreign policy, or presented the guidelines earlier this year, they are talking about intersectionality. Like in the theory of the concept, the foreign ministry really understands the importance of intersectionality, the importance of tackling power imbalances and it's all in the guidelines, so that is fantastic. It even at some points brings in aspects of disarmament, or at least arms control. That is a good start. It's not sufficient at all, what's happening in Germany on that front, and in our assessment of the German guidelines and feminist foreign policy, we are fairly pleased with it, given that we're very well aware of the difficult circumstances not only in Europe at a time of war, but also amongst any kind of environment which is in increasingly getting more and more right wing. There's quite a bit of a missing of course, like stronger focus on disarmament, we're absolutely missing dedicated funding for feminist civil society, Whilst Germany pledges to increase the share of ODA, that is given to projects that include gender equality, there's not a more transformative approach with regard to funding and there's no dedicated promise dedicated funding for feminist civil society, while at the same time we know that it's feminist civil society around the world- we're driving change towards more justice for all. So, I guess, in conclusion, it's a very great first kind of a presentation of guidelines on feminist foreign policy by Germany. And we hope that our constructive critique will be taken on board as hopefully the feminist foreign policy has been developed further.

Dr. Tishya Khillare: 

Right, it’s interesting, you mentioned disarmament and arms control, and the need to sort of cull that out a bit more in the German feminist foreign policy. And this conversation, you know, is taking place at a time when we're seeing the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, where Germany is a strong military ally to Ukraine. Taking from that I want to sort of get your sense on the transformative aspects of feminist foreign policy. You know, you're saying that Germany's feminist foreign policy, as it stands right now has made a good start- which other foreign policy according to you has sort of struck the right balance, or made a good start with respect to incorporating transformative aspects in its feminist foreign policy.

Ms. Kristina Lunz:

I think the different aspects that can be highlighted positively for the different countries that have a feminist foreign policy. So, I feel that Mexico, for example, is really good at including feminist or at least gender aspects in climate protection and conferences and like discussions and policies around climate. They've shown like true commitment at different international conferences on climate. Then I feel Canada for example, with their foreign minister, surely, they have a great role model at least, who strongly kind of it feels like believes in the feminist foreign policy and shows this commitment on the international stage similar to Germany's Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock. Then Colombia, for example, that has announced a feminist foreign policy, but is still kind of developing a roadmap or strategy with the Vice President Francia Márquez, was the first black person that leadership in the country black woman in the leadership of the country, she grew up in the countryside, a very well-known climate defender, feminist, and she's now vice president, and we had her speak at our event on feminist foreign policy at high level dinner at the year’s Munich security conference, earlier this year, and she is one of the most convincing, I mean, she has been a feminist activist for so many years. So having someone like her in the leadership position of a country and being so committed to feminist policies, that is absolutely fantastic. And Canada also because they announced first a Feminist International Assistance Policy in 2017. And then kind of extended that policy to also broaden their women peace and security work and included in defence work and support. There have been really interesting developments with regards to policies, they have a fantastic Ambassador for Women peace and security who's very committed. And at the same time, though, the announcement few years back that they would soon rollout and a fully-fledged strategy on feminist foreign policy has not materialized yet. So, it's different stages, different aspects to highlight, different aspects to criticize. Speaking of criticizing France, for example, who in 2018 announced their foreign policy, feminist diplomacy, they until today have never talked about kind of the conflict that is there in announcing feminist foreign policy, but at the same time being a nuclear country, for example. So yeah, there's lots to applaud and support countries in the feminist foreign policy and lots to constructively criticize.

Dr. Tishya Khillare: 

I agree, I think of all of these countries I'm most interested in and looking forward to a more expanded version of feminist foreign policy coming from Mexico, I think there was a position paper by Martha Delgado, the former undersecretary for Multilateral Affairs and Human Rights and that sort of outlined Mexico's vision of feminist foreign policy and what really stands out to me in their feminist foreign policy is the intentional focus they've placed on structural gender inequalities at home, domestically, and the need for radical solutions in their feminist foreign policy. I think you know, just incorporating that language speaks volumes of a transformative intent already; remains to be seen how it pans out, but the Mexican feminist foreign policy is, at least in language transformative to begin with. In fact, they will focus a little bit more on their internal dimensions of their foreign policy, not so much on the external dimensions, which is a little bit of a contrast between, you know, the other foreign policies, feminist foreign policies that we've seen coming from global north countries, I think it's one of the first few countries that speaks more, or maybe at least equally about their domestic aspects like ensuring gender parity within the foreign affairs ministry, ending gender violence inside the ministry, giving visibility to women and their efforts in the foreign policy efforts of Mexico. So that also sort of speaks about you know, where their focus is.

On a related note, I want to know your thoughts on the politics of language and labelling around feminist foreign policy. I was at an academic panel early this year on feminist foreign policy, and one of the questions that kept repeatedly being asked was that how is feminist foreign policy any different from mainstreaming gender in foreign policy? And the argument being made there was if governments are choosing to focus on gender exclusively within their feminist foreign policies, and skirt around more controversial issues that would require transformative approaches, are governments simply relabelling gender mainstreaming in foreign policy as feminist foreign policy? Which got me thinking that there is a related question hidden in there, you know, is it necessary to call a pro gender foreign policy, feminist foreign policy, given that there is a strong opposition to the word feminist in many countries, not just in the Global South, but also in the global north, and can sometimes actually prevent some good amount of pro gender work from being done?

Ms. Kristina Lunz:

A true feminist foreign policy does not stop at being pro gender, right? So there's a significant like an important difference between gender policies and feminist policies. They are, especially as internationally authoritarian tendencies and authoritarian regimes actually increasing, and we see more and more examples where we have countries that are really good at gender policies, but are not feminist at all. That means, for example, that they might have a fairly high rate of representation of women in Parliament's. They have a fairly high representation of women in business leadership positions and other aspects like gender policies. But these same countries might not have open civil society spaces, and they are oppressing civil society, then they do not have freedom of press, or freedom of speech, and so forth. And that is kind of the difference between gender policies and feminist policies. Feminist foreign policies cannot go hand in hand with an oppressed civil society or with a not open civil society. It cannot go hand in hand with the lack of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and so forth. So that is kind of a couple of thoughts on the difference between gender policies and feminist foreign policy, because feminist policies always have to be about liberties about rights about end of oppression. So, but in general, kind of the question whether we need the term feminist in feminist foreign policy? Well, to me and to us here at the Center for Feminist foreign policy, it's important. It's important because with all the work that we are doing on feminist foreign policy, we are standing on the shoulders of so many feminists who've been working on the topic for more than 100 years. And everything we're doing, we can only do because we're building on their knowledge and expertise on what they have been fighting for kind of the decades of feminist activism, especially on disarmament, especially on human rights, not only at the UN in the 70s, and 80s, but it's like peace conference, Paris Peace Conference in 1919, and so forth. That's all been feminists working in foreign policy in diplomacy, and we're standing on those shoulders, so I would find it disrespectful to not highlight kind of the legacy that is there.

Dr. Tishya Khillare: 

I think my own take on this and this is a very controversial question, it's a controversial topic, at least back home, you know, the stigma around the use of the word feminism and feminist foreign policy and what that really means.. But my own take on this is that it may sometimes be strategically more pragmatic, for the purpose of getting some pro gender work done, to label policies as inclusive or pro gender or gender equal or aiming for gender equality but it comes.. ..I always say this with like a warning, you know, you need to be a little more careful and vigilant about accountability for governments if they aren't choosing to not call their foreign policies, feminist foreign policies, but has some pro gender aspects, when I think there is a risk of diluting pro gender initiatives in that entire foreign policy machinery. There is a lack of accountability there is a lack of monitoring of evaluation and basically seeing and assessing the direction that these initiatives may be going in. But there have been some countries who've been able to do a significant amount of work, I think it is Professor Katrina Lee-Koo at Monash University who talks about pro gender foreign policy by stealth and she refers to this in reference to Norway and Australia, and what she says is that these two countries have been able to get a good amount of pro gender norms inculcated within their foreign policies and also do a good amount of pro gender work in other countries, but where there is this sort of an adverse reaction in regions to the term feminism, not having a foreign policy that is out, you know, that is labelled as feminist foreign policy helps them sort of get a foot in the door,

Ms. Kristina Lunz:

I completely get the point about being strategic and like talking about being pragmatic and strategic, versus being like radical and outspoken to achieve more of us in the next generations, like that's a whole important topic on its own. But I guess just wanted to note on here, like calling it pro gender foreign policy, I mean, like this is what we talked about, in the beginning, feminist foreign policy is not only limited to gender, so calling it pro gender foreign policy agenda equal foreign policy, is just part of feminist foreign policy. So, it cannot be the same because it excludes so many aspects.

Dr. Tishya Khillare: 

That's an important distinction. I agree with you about gender mainstreaming being a part of feminist foreign policy. I think it's an important tool to be utilized in the making of feminist foreign policy. To me it's a method versus a methodology kind of a distinction with gender mainstreaming being a method, not an entire approach for feminist transformation of foreign policy. That's where I think gender mainstreaming sometimes also gets like a bad rep in feminist circles, because many feminists do look at it as an apolitical and technocratic tool. So, it works very well for policymakers, but may not be very transformative. If a country announces and adopts a feminist foreign policy and chooses to call it that it will be and should be judged for whether it confronts the politics of inequality or not. And perhaps, you know, maybe it's for these very reasons that the 'F' word faces very strong backlash and captures really more than anything, an unwillingness in policy circles to take that leap, and do that difficult work of finding newer ways of doing international politics. You know, having said that, I do strongly think that doing good pro gender work is of most importance. And if strategically reframing feminist interventions as inclusive or gender reflective helps to get more of that work done, so be it. It's also you know, luckily, in the nature of feminist politics, and certainly feminist advocacy, to keep working with governments to review and refine policies time and again. So, a flexible strategy around labels to get a foot in the door to me.. is not bad feminism.

Kristina, I'm very mindful of the time. So, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation on feminist foreign policy and for sharing your valuable thoughts with me.

Ms. Kristina Lunz:

No, thank you so much. And I'm like, generally excited and happy and grateful and over the moon, that more and more organizations are working on feminist foreign policy, especially in India. That is so cool. So please be in touch. There's lots we still have to do.

Dr. Tishya Khillare: 

Thank you so much.

Ms. Kristina Lunz:

Thank you so much. Thank you